INTERVIEWER
Good afternoon Erna. Today is the 9th February 2022 and I’m here with Myrna to have a wee chat with you this afternoon. Thank you very much for having us in your lovely, lovely flat. So first of all, I was going to ask you Erna, what was your name at birth? and when were you born and where were you born?
ERNA
My name was always, always has been Erna, but I’ve had a middle name Estereisl. I was born in Dortmund, Germany unfortunately.
INTERVIEWER
And when were you born?
ERNA
91 years ago, 27.06.1930.
INTERVIEWER
And what was your last name?
ERNA
Well, there was a wee bit of a carry on. My father’s name was Czulavitz[AS1] [SM2] , but my mother’s name was Rabner, and they couldn’t get married in the land, the law of the land. They had to get married In Yiddish law, so I was known as Rabner, not Czulavitz, which was my father’s name.
INTERVIEWER
And so, was your father born in Dortmund as well?
ERNA
No, he was Polish actually, don’t know where abouts. I just knew he was Polish.
INTERVIEWER
And your mother?
ERNA
She was German.
INTERVIEWER
And so how did they, how did they meet?
ERNA
Well. there was a lot of trouble in Poland for the Jews, and the Jewish people came to Germany. I think it was a Shidduch
INTERVIEWER
And a Shidduch is an arranged marriage? Which is actually, nowadays, I think is quite a nice idea.
ERNA
There’s still plenty I think.
INTERVIEWER
And so, you were born, and was your father working as well?
ERNA
My father was a shoemaker really to trade, but he did travel, he travelled. I don’t know exactly what he sold but he was a traveller really.
INTERVIEWER
And your mother did she work?
ERNA
No, she didn’t work. Sorry, that’s not true. My mother and her two sisters had what they call ‘gown shops’. I never saw them but that’s what they had.
INTERVIEWER
And did you have brothers and sisters?
ERNA
I had a sister. Unfortunately, she died recently. She was a lawyer. She was six years younger than I. She came, when she came alone with some Yiddishe lady, and we never could find out who it was. My sister tried. I tried, and my husband Olov haSholem also tried. We never found out who this lady was that brought her, it was a Jewish lady that came.
INTERVIEWER
So, what was life like for you as a little girl?
ERNA
Well, it wasn’t very bad at all. I was in this lady’s house. They looked for a nurse, Nurse Livingstone because I had Diphtheria.
INTERVIEWER
Before you met Nurse Livingstone, when you were with your mum and dad…
ERNA
I can’t remember an awful lot, my father used to drag me to Shul that I remember, and I was at a Jewish school. I had some non-Jewish friends, but I wasn’t allowed to play with them after a certain time. I was kind of frightened because I used to see the Black Shirts or whatever they had on. I was very frightened of them, and I always used to say, I wanted to go away. So, they asked me if I wanted to go away.
INTERVIEWER
Which is quite a traumatic thing, absolutely. But I was going to also say you said before that your parents were religious ,as well, so I presume you kept a Kosher home?
ERNA
A very Kosher home.
INTERVIEWER
And so, did you mix with other members of the family? Were they as religious?
ERNA
Yes, My grandma, I don’t remember my grandfather so much, but the aunts and the uncles, they all lived down the street on the opposite side also in a flat. I remember that.
INTERVIEWER
So, you would probably get together for Friday nights, I would think and for Shabbat for lunch. Yes. So, I am stirring it here, so who do you think was a better cook then?
ERNA
Well, I don’t know.
INTERVIEWER
So, were they all good cooks? Do you remember? Was there any that were your favourite meals?
ERNA
I don’t know. I remember my grandma was blind we lived in my grandma’s flat. But she was blind, and I just could see her sitting in the corner with her grey hair in a bun, with a black dress on. I remember that.
INTERVIEWER
I’m being told actually, I would imagine that you were to be quiet, and to go and speak to Grandma.
ERNA
No, I wasn’t told that, I always just sat quietly. I just knew that I had to be quiet.
INTERVIEWER
So, life must have changed as well when your sister came along?
ERNA
Well, she only came along, well I was eight when I left Germany, and she was six years younger than me. So, she hardly said much. She was just two years old or so.
INTERVIEWER
So, when you said when you left Germany, was it on the Kindertransport?
ERNA
Yes, the Kindertransport. My father put me on the train, but he put me in an empty compartment, and I don’t know if it was the next station or the station after that after the two girls came on. But they were older than me. They were called Yutta and Ursula. I don’t remember their second name you know they’re gone now, unfortunately, they died recently, and I see their daughter still, one of their daughters quite often.
INTERVIEWER
I am going to ask Myrna if she remembers who Yutta and Ursula were.
MYRNA
Yes Yutta was Yutta Silverstone, which was her married name and Ursula married an Italian … Ursula Maung.
ERNA
They looked after me on the train.
INTERVIEWER
How wonderful.
ERNA
Because I must have been spoiled I could hardly wash my own face, you know, I was the only grandchild and I think I was very spoiled.
INTERVIEWER
And quite right too.
ERNA
And my sister came later, she came here the day before War was declared, with this lady whom I did not know, I could never find out who she was.
INTERVIEWER
So, when you came with Yutta and Ursula, and so you arrived in England?
ERNA
Yes, we went to the Hook of Holland, and then we went to a big camp in Harwich, and there, people came along and chose children to take, ….to adopt sort of style. But, I was, unfortunately, my eyes were very bad, I had a turn in my eye and nobody kind of looked at me and I was a wee skinny thing.
INTERVIEWER
You are still a very slender lady, I think.
ERNA
That is only since recently, you know. And they sent me they looked for a nurse or someone to send me to because I had been so ill, and she was a Jewish lady, there was two nurses in Glasgow, and they sent me to the married one. She had two sons of her own.
INTERVIEWER
So, you went all the way from the camp in Harwich up to Glasgow?
ERNA
So, we went to London then to Glasgow, but we didn’t stay in London, we went from London in a train.
INTERVIEWER
So how did you get from the camp?
ERNA
We went in a train to Glasgow, with these two ladies who I was always friendly with. They came to Glasgow and for a wee while they sort of disappeared. I didn’t know them and then the lady that I went to, Nurse Livingstone, she went out to a lady called Mrs. Butler who was a relation of these two girls, and ‘my mother’ said one day would I like to go and see this lady? I called her ‘my mother’, and we went there and Yutta was there, she was kind of like a maid almost to them, and I got in touch with Yutta then.
INTERVIEWER
So, you’re eight when you came over. That’s a long journey to make as a little girl. I think.
ERNA
You just had to do it, or I don’t know, I just did it. Well, we didn’t go straight away, I think I stayed in the camp for about three months.
INTERVIEWER
Do you remember what life was like? Did you go to school in camp?
ERNA
No, not in the camp no. I think we got a few lessons but not a school at all. There’s so many people so many children.
INTERVIEWER
And were you in dormitories?
ERNA
Yes, like that. They tried to teach us English a bit. You know, I think what I remember most is I got tea with milk in it, and I’ve never had that I always used to have lemon tea. I don’t know why that’s stuck in my head……
INTERVIEWER
No, actually it’s funny you say that because one of the other ladies we interviewed that was one of her first memories and she said she remembers that going back to her, her mother had managed to come over and she said to her mother ‘they served tea in a very strange way’.
ERNA
And they took us to see films and the King, I think was still alive. We had to stand up for the anthem. You know, I remember that bit it is funny you remember small things like that.
INTERVIEWER
Because it makes a big impression, and I have to say although I’m a little bit younger, even as a child it was frowned upon if you left the pictures before the anthem had finished playing.
ERNA
That’s right we were taught the anthem. Suzanne (Erna’s daughter) is saying that she doesn’t remember that at all, but that’s because she was much younger!
[AS1]Check spelling
[SM2]Not sure Chilowitz always spelt in different ways
