reflection

Esperance David – Reflection

INT: Did you like Scotland?

ED: Yes, I think so. They were more open, you know. I worked in a school in Scotland, in East Kilbride. That came after, really, Sandhurst wasn’t it? And they were very, very nice, you know. The headmaster was nice, a retired army officer, sergeant major, so the school was run on those lines. Listen, everywhere I went I was a foreigner, you know? And to the Home Office, do you know how they referred to us at this time?

INT2: No.

ED: We had to go to the Aliens Department in the Home Office. The Aliens, we were aliens.

INT: And do you still feel very foreign now, even now, or do you feel a bit more Scottish? What do you feel, what do you consider yourself to be?

ED: I don’t feel Scottish, I don’t feel English and I don’t feel Israeli either. And Baghdad, I don’t want to know. So I really, no, this is my house, I made it my home but it’s not really, you know, like them, they were born in England. They were born, you know, Britain is their home, but you can’t divorce yourself from where you are really. I was there until seventeen years old, I was grown up, you know, just…

INT: So, my last question is, if you look back now on your time here, once you’d got to Scotland, what are the highs and lows that stand out for you?

ED: For Scotland or for me?

INT: For your whole life.

ED: All in all, it was an interesting life. It wasn’t milk and honey. I’ve had to fight all my life, maybe I still fight now, you know? Because it wasn’t easy getting, or acquiring, anything. It was always, you know, kind of, not a hundred per cent, it was more fifty per cent more that I should give of myself or do more to really get. Even at school, you know, I was Mrs. David, the notorious Mrs. David, if you like. I had to. I wouldn’t let anyone walk over me and they were inclined to do that because I’m a foreigner. It doesn’t matter if we lived in England for ten, fifteen years, I’m still, you know, I’m here. Wherever I was, I’m a foreigner, you know? I’m an alien.

[Laughter].

INT: And the high points? What would you say, what…?

ED: The high point, getting married and having my own home. Life was very tough, as I said. David wasn’t even qualified yet, but we managed somehow or other. Yes, and I didn’t teach until Michelle grew up and the other two were grown up enough. And I taught, I was here in, twenty years in here and about three, four years in East Kilbride, yes. So, until I retired here, yes.

INT: Well, thank you, we’ve had a fascinating afternoon and it’s very kind of you to share your memories with us.

Judith Rosenberg – Reflection On Life

Judith concludes by describing the high point in her life – her husband Harold’s love and loyalty to her and her love for him.

INT: Just one last question Judith. If you look, looking back on your life what would you say was the high point of your life?

JR: The high point of my life was, without doubt – until I got married I couldn’t believe it that I could get married. You see how…Maybe Harold will be demobbed and soldiers disappear and I’m left alone in Germany. I was never sure of myself. But then he kept to his word; he never veered for a minute, you know. So…You know, find somebody who loves you and you love him back, it’s a real love story.

JR: The idea that he actually stayed and waited for me. I mean I didn’t have much; I didn’t have much…How do you call it?

INT: To offer?

JR: Clothes. I had nothing.

INT: Well, I think that indeed is a very good place to stop.

JR: Yes. To get a husband who loves you, and in those days he didn’t look after my mother yet. That was later on. It was like Madam Butterfly in a different way. He did come and he never left my side.

INT: Thank you Judith.

JR: Yes I think that’s enough.

INT: That’s fine, thank you Judith.

JR: Finish on a high note.

INT: Absolutely.

JR: OK.

Eva Szirmai – Reflection On Life

Eva emphasises that the highlight of her life was living in Scotland in a free society

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INT: Eva we always finish with asking people to say their highlights.

E.S: Yes

INT: And not so much the low points of their lives. But what would you say, reflecting back, what would you say are your highlights?

E.S: To live here.

INT: And about, quite often people say…

E.S: I told you about that, you know, it was a new world. It was a new world, a free world. You could say what your opinion was, what we missed very much. And also you can practise your religion freely,

We, financially we were really fine because my husband you could say had two jobs. Because, for example, he was already in the opera and then from Berlin, came, they asked for a Chazzan because there was no Jewish Chazzan.

So the government recommended my husband, you know, because he was the best voice, you know. So my husband went to sing in Berlin for High Holy Days,

And we didn’t know a long time [about the fate of her father]… didn’t want to tell us. We were always hoping he will come home but my brother George, thank God, came back. But he (George) was very ill all his life. But he still managed, he was eighty-six when he passed away, two years ago he passed away.

INT: And so you have three grandsons I know that.

E.S: Five.

INT: I was going to say, and what’s your other daughter had?… But it’s grandsons as well.

E.S: I have five grandsons.

INT: Five grandsons.

E.S: Thank God.

INT: Eva, I’d like to say thank you very much for the interview. It was very interesting and thank you very much.

E.S: You’re welcome.

INT. And thank you very much

Dorrith M. Sim – Reflection On Life

Dorrith talks about the importance of the reunions for her and her happy memories of life in Scotland.

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INT: So, we were thinking about the dates. When do you reckon that the reunion of Kinder was?

D.S: It was fifty years after the start of the war so it must have been 1989. That would be the reunion in London. And then I think our one was the next year, it would be ’90.

INT: Did you feel that you had more in common with people who’d come from Germany like yourself? Or just generally all those people who had to escape?

D.S: I just felt like they were family. Every now and again, you know, I’ll phone Rosa or someone. It’s very much a part of my life now. Everybody has got different stories. Every now and then I just need to meet up with them. It was very exciting finding all these people.

INT: Indeed and quite a few whom you met had never sort of, come out as Kindertransport or as refugees.

D.S: No.They never knew and of course the reunion in Scotland wasn’t just Kindertransport which was good, you know. I mean it was the likes of your mum-in-law Susie Singerman and it was lovely to meet up with everybody.

INT: Do you think that you enjoyed it particularly because you had had more connections earlier on? In some way it’s surprising after all these years that you were so pleased because you lived a different life entirely.

D.S: I know. But, no I really, I never really met up with anybody else, except Rita McNeil. But I don’t think I met up with anyone else, not that I can think of.

INT: And you found a lot of people at that time?

D.S: Yes. I think there were over forty at that first reunion. Then we kept finding more people.

INT: I think you were finding people up till very recently.

D.S: That’s right. I know, it was good.

INT: Going back to you and your time here in Scotland, you obviously feel Scottish and not German – is that right?

D.S: You know when you’ve got to put down what nationality you are, I don’t, I say Scottish.

INT: I’m sure you do. What would you say are the highs of your time in Scotland? Or is that too difficult to say?

D.S: Having my family after we got married and went to live in Dundee. We were there for about three years perhaps but I really, really liked Dundee where I had my children. I lost first my baby, and then I had my twins. They were born in Dundee and Susan was born in Dundee and that was a big high.

Bob Kutner – Reflection On Life

Bob talks of his own family in Glasgow and the importance of the wider Jewish community there

INT1: One last question really about your time in Scotland. What were the high and lows for you? Obviously you got married, you had children

BK: Yes. Well, obviously getting married was a high

INT1: Mm

BK: Um, 1953. Um, we had children… our children came I suppose 2 or 4, 2 and 4 years after we married, something like that. If, if Barbara was here, she’d tell me I got it wrong

INT1: Mm

BK: Well, 2 or 4 near enough

INT1: Mm

BK: Yeah, and one boy and one girl. A reverse order, one girl and one boy. Yeah.

INT1: And did you get involved with working with the Jewish community? In a voluntary way? I I know you do now, but did you always do that…

BK: In those days no. I had I had no understanding of that even. I suppose like a lot of immigrants, we were concerned looking after ourselves and getting ourselves established.

And I wasn’t even… re… remotely concerned with Jewish problems, except I tried to find a synagogue fairly soon. Make, let, make it clear I’m not very religious, but you have to have a synagogue. And partly though that I met some people as well of course

INT1: But, later didn’t, you were very involved with drama?

BK: Very involved. An amateur theatre club, which was very very high standing and standard…

INT2: Avrom Greenberg Players

BK: Avrom Greenbaum Players, where my wife was one of the leading ladies. But because I have no talent I went on the management side. I was the chairman quite a while in it. That was a fantastic time. For Glasgow, young people all together, I think the Avrom Greenbaum Players did wonders to drawing the community together both in terms of spectators and workers. It really was, you are all too young to know about it. But it was quite fantastic

INT1: It is, It’s a shame that the community is not big enough really now I think to sustain that is it?

BK: It wasn’t big enough and television became… a serious competitor.

And kids didn’t want to go out in dark in the winter to rehearse when they could sit at home watching the old fashioned television box

INT: Mm

INT1: Would you say that that Judaism has been significant in your life?

BK: Totally. Totally. Um, now anyways, to me it’s all about being Jewish, but it’s always been… the persecution, the running away, the persecution, the running away, and then coming to this lovely Jewish community. Which was and is a lovely Jewish community. And very supportive of me. Not in the sense of charity, but in the sense of being supportive and kind and helpful, yes

INT1: Remind me what your books called Bob, because I’m sure…

INT2: Over My Shoulder

BK and INT1: Over My Shoulder

INT1: And why is it called Over My Shoulder?

BK: Looking back…

BK: … what I’m doing with you just now

Alice Malcolm – Reflection On Life

Alice talks about the kindness of Glasgow people and her happiness in Scotland.

AM: So I have enjoyed my new country.

INT: Yes.

AM: I have never lost my foreign accent because when I was evacuated I was in with so many different accents I copied them all. In the end I stayed in Scotland and I copied the Highland girls’ accents but as I’ve no contact with them out comes my mother’s accent. That can’t be a bad thing. I think it’s the best country in Europe for me.

INT: Why’s that?

AM: Scotland?

INT: Yes.

AM: Because they’re wholesome people. Unfortunately I have very poor sight but I like to be independent. I take my life in my hands when I go out but when somebody sees that I’m struggling to go on a bus or crossing a road they help me. Some people just grab me and I am afraid of who it might be but others say, “May I help you?” I don’t think I would find that anywhere. In other countries people are afraid to speak to strangers. I can only say good things. I’ve made good friends here Unfortunately many of them are no longer here, and I’m still making friends.

INT: It’s a good reason to make friends with people younger than you isn’t it?

AM: Yes, well that’s more difficult because the younger people today don’t want the older. A generation ago; 60s, 70s, yes. But not today. They’re being re-educated now.

INT: So is there any final things that you want to say before we turn this off?

AM: I said that I’m happy in the country here?

INT: Yes. You said all that.

AM: But I’m sad that my family is not here. I am now here alone. One is in New York where I have four grandsons and one is in Cambridge, who has never found a Scottish lass yet.

INT: Yes, Ok so thank you very much for your time.

AM: I would like to hear it. Thank you for coming.

reflection

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