Reflection on Life

Sonja Hancox – Reflection on Life

Sonja explains how she feels in relation to Scotland.

INT: Tell me if you look back on your time here in Scotland what would you say were the high points for you?

SH: Probably acceptance. Nobody ever asked me…….they thought I was just foreign, you know. But I could have been Italian or Spanish or…

INT: That makes sense.

SH: …or whatever. Is that right?

M: Well, what, when you’re being asked about high points, what significant events, anything…?

SH: I don’t know. You were born.

M: I mean you used to have good fun.

SH: Yes. And we knew a wide selection of intelligent people; you know sort of, that we dealt with. It’s difficult to…

M: Well we used to have things like a bonfire party every year.

SH: Yes, every year and every year the same people came.

M: But it was good fun, you know.

SH: Yes. And they were all sort of intellectually there.

INT: Well that’s….

INT: Well the West End of Glasgow is a good place…

SH: Oh absolutely, absolutely. That we never came across you was sort of…

INT: I was in the West End.

SH: You weren’t in the West End.

INT: I was, oh yes.

M: Well mum didn’t live in the West End; they lived in Gartocharn for a while.

SH: We lived in…

M: …And also in Helensburgh.

INT: Oh yes.

SH: And then we came back to Glasgow. It didn’t, it didn’t suit anymore when everybody left to go to university and so forth. It didn’t suit anymore to live in the sticks.

INT: When did you come to this house?

SH: Oh about fifty years ago.

INT: As long as that?

INT: And do you feel Scottish now? Or…?

SH: Am I Scottish now?

INT: Are you Scottish now?

SH: No.

INT: No. What are you would you say?

SH: No. I couldn’t tell you what I am, but I certainly am not Scottish and I’m not in favour of what they’re going to do in Scotland. But I am on my own in this opinion.

INT: Well I don’t think you’re on your own in this opinion but you’re probably on your own in your unique number of nationalities. So you must be partly…

INT: You’re a mixture.

INT: Partly Czech, partly German, partly Polish.

SH: Yes.

INT: It’s quite a big mixture.

SH: Yes. Are you in favour of Scotland becoming Scotland?

INT: Certainly not.

SH: Oh good.

INT: Certainly not.

SH: Thank you.

M: You can come back again.

INT: Certainly not. I think maybe I’ll ask you one more question if I may? Were there…? What would you say were the low points? I asked you about high points in your life, what would you say were low points? Or, fortunately, have you avoided them after 1939?

M: Bad things that happened or difficult times…

SH: No, no I really can’t think of any low points.

INT: Well that’s excellent.

INT: Being on that boat looking for the passport – that must have been a low point?

SH: But no I can’t think of any terribly high points or terribly low points. The high points are easier to find but the low points, I just can’t think of any. I mean you quarrel with your family but that’s…

INT: That’s normal.

SH: That’s normal. Let’s eat these.

INT: Thank you very much for speaking to us.

SH: Then we might be able to get a cup of tea.

INT: Yes I think we’re in time for a cup of tea. Thank you very much for speaking to us.

SH: It was a pleasure.

Marianne Grant – Reflection On Life

Finally Geraldine reflects on her parents’ lives and her own. She considers whether the world has learnt from the lessons of the Holocaust.

INT: It’s a hard thing to know your mother suffered.

GS: Very hard, but as children, we knew we weren’t allowed to leave anything on our plates; no food was to be wasted; nothing in our home could be wasted. Every envelope was written on, even on the back. I’ve even actually got my ten-year-old birthday card somewhere here and inside it, if you open it up, my mum has used every bit of paper. I think she was getting new curtains made; she’s got the measurements written down, or for a shopping list.

Every newspaper that came into our home was re-used. The paper was re-used, whether it be for lighting the fire or wrapping up her precious flower bulbs in the winter to protect them. No matter what, it was re-used, re-used, in every way possible. Everything. We had a stool; I always remember in the kitchen we had a stool that had a shelf underneath it and all the papers would be kept. If somebody wanted a paper from three weeks ago past Friday, I’ll say, we’ll have it.

But things were kept quite quiet in a sense, in my early years because my grandmother lived with us in our home as well for a number of years. And it was very difficult.

My father had a very difficult background. He came from Germany, well from Konigsberg. It was East Prussia. He came about the age of seventeen. His parents managed to get a visa to Britain for him in 1938. But his little brother and his parents didn’t make it out. They were gassed. They were sent to the gas chambers as he later found out. And imagine being a young teenager and you’re sent away, and you’re coming to somewhere you’ve never been and all on your own. It was too painful, I think, for my parents to discuss their past experiences really. In our early years, it was very difficult and also they spoke quite a lot of German in the house with my grandma and I was a bit embarrassed about that at the time. German to me, in those days, when I grew up, I mean I’m talking about when I was more aware of it, in the late sixties, early seventies – it was such an ugly language and people didn’t really want to talk about the war it was only later on in life in Britain it was much more acceptable

But you know now it’s all a lot easier, but I think that certain things are definitely passed from generation to generation, but sadly the world hasn’t learned…learned from the Holocaust. There’s been so many other horrendous goings on in the world, in Rwanda and the refugees. It’s just horrific. Nothing, nothing really has changed…sadly.

INT: Do you think, really as a last question, do you think that your mother remained optimistic about life; how was she in herself, after all these events that she lived through?

GS: She had a great sense of humour. She was a very stubborn lady. I said her stamina and her stubbornness kept her going. And determined…she was determined. Because later in life, she had very bad osteoporosis, but still, still insisted on walking to the synagogue on a Saturday.

She would see always the good. You know she would always push, push, push, but she didn’t trust people. A lot of times she would say to me the police can be crooked. It was a hard thing for her. How could she trust anybody?

When she arrived in Auschwitz, I know there was a young boy. When they were in Prague, before she was taken away they used to have to take in certain people to their homes for lunch. That was one of the stipulations. And there was a lovely boy, that used to go to her house. And he was one of the boys that she first came across in Auschwitz and he whispered to her, ‘Have you any valuables? Have you got any valuables, Mousie? I’ll keep them for you safe’. And he did keep his word. She gave him a few things and he did come and find her and he gave them back. Which obviously probably helped in certain ways to save her and my grandma’s life as well.

However, his sister, he had a horrible sister, and this woman was now dressed, she said, in the heaviest warm coat and special leather boots and the best clothes in the midst of the darkness of Auschwitz. And she ignored her; she turned her back on my mum because she was in charge. She was one of these Jewish women that was whipping the Jews. Jews whipped the Jews, you know, because she got extra…extra…

INT: Rations?

GS: Rations, only for herself. So I think that my mum couldn’t believe that somebody could become like that and I think my mother’s trust in people was sometimes a bit wary, a bit difficult. Which is very understandable.

INT: It certainly is. Thank you for sharing your mother’s story with us this afternoon.

GS: Thank you.

Edith Forrester – Reflection On Life

Edith describes the many highpoints in her life and her one main regret.

INT: And have you ever wanted to go back to Germany since? Since that last meeting with your father?

EF: No, no. I did go with a couple of groups when we took students and I had a very good head of department. He was Polish and happened to be in Poland at the time the war broke out and therefore…yes. He had to join the Polish Army, and he and I took a couple of trips to Germany with pupils and that was mostly enjoyable but…

INT: And later in life did you start mixing more with other people who came as Kindertransport or as survivors of the Holocaust?

EF: Well yes, I heard about the Kindertransport. I think it was really through Hansie (Hansie Douglas Dobschiener) although she didn’t come through the Kindertransport. I just had this desire to meet some of the others and I used to enjoy meeting Bob and Betty (McKenzie) and the Wugas, who I hadn’t known before, and some of the others. And all had done very well, you know so…But Rosa Sacharin was a dear lady, yeah, and I found her very nice. She’s been through to see me. But it’s keeping in touch, you know, and there it is…

INT: If you look back now on your years here in Scotland what would you say was, has been the high point for you?

EF: Oh my…there’s so many.

INT: High points?

EF: Well getting wonderful foster parents. Even though I was never adopted, they were wonderful parents to me. They had lost their own child, Mum nearly died and the baby was stillborn and she couldn’t have any more. But they took me thinking that I would go back to my own parents. What kind of people are those? Wonderful, loving people. That was a highlight. And getting me an education, because they did without. We didn’t get grants in those days and they saw me right through my education and everything and it was wonderful. And I said, “Well one thing I’m not going to do, I’m not going to teach.” “Well just wait and see.” So my lady advisor said to me, “

Edith, I want you to take a year at Moray House, you know, once you’re through. Go and get your degree.” And I said, “I don’t want to teach.” But she said, “Nevertheless take your year at Moray House.” And I always remember because Miss Christie was a very strict lady but she was an excellent, excellent lady and teacher. We had her for classics, for Latin. And that’s what I did. I found myself in teaching and I loved it! Absolutely loved it. I had thirty-one and a half years teaching and I loved it.

INT: And did you ever tell the children about your background and where you came from?

EF: No but since I’ve retired, I’ve done many talks, many talks in schools. Usually to either Primary Seven or…not to Primary Seven, and also to secondary schools, yes. I did that for many years and but now I’m past that I think.

INT: And you felt it was important, why to do that?

EF: Because I, I had had to hide my Jewishness; I had to hide my being German and through Mum and Dad, they said, “There’s nothing to be ashamed of. Why would you hide that?” And I suddenly felt I can shout it from the rooftops, “I am Jewish!” And if I were in a room that was full of people and somebody said, “Any Jews stand!” I would not even hesitate because I am so proud of my Jewish birth and that I had a Jewish mother that bore me.

INT: And yet you are a keen member of the Church as well aren’t you?

EF: Yes, yes. I was a deacon for many, many years but it’s only for so many years at a time in the Baptist Church. I was baptised and Hansie came and she said, “Edith I don’t know if I’m going to manage because I’m in Coldstream in the morning for the service but if I can I will be there in the evening.”.

INT: And that was Hansie Douglas?

EF: Hansie Douglas Dobschiener.

INT: Dobschiener.

EF: And I can always remember her when I was baptised and Helen, who is my best friend, Dr Wishart, she came and got me out, dried me off and then I went and got dressed and then I came through and Hansie shot down the aisle…like that.

INT: She gave you a hug?

EF: Yes, yeah, oh yes.

INT: Are there…I shouldn’t ask this really, but are there any low points from your experience here in Scotland?

EF: Difficult to tell because in many ways I have been so blessed, so many ways. My home, no mortgage; I could take early retirement because of my deafness. That has been a hard thing to put up with because it started when I was in my late thirties and it’s got steadily worse so I have very strong hearing aids. And yeah…And I think I always vowed, which was wrong, I know that now, that I would never marry unless it was a Jew that I married.

And, as it so happened one of the loves of my life was German, turned out to be German and I couldn’t tell him. I hadn’t even the courage to tell him that I was Jewish. I just broke it off and said, “No I don’t think this friendship is going to go anywhere”. So…yeah. But no, I’ve been so blessed. Pension from my teaching, you know, and everything in the house was left for me so I’m blessed. I would have loved to have had children, especially grandchildren. Oh how I would have loved them. But I have seven Godchildren and they are very loving and I’ve had them since they were born and now they are grown up. That’s some of them up there. These are the Godchildren.

INT: You’ve got lovely photographs.

EF: Identical twins.

INT: Well Edith that was very nice to speak to you this afternoon and thank you very much.

EF: You’re welcome.

Bob Mackenzie – Reflection on Life

Bob talks about the reasons he sees himself as Scottish and reflects on his good fortune in life.

INT: You sound so much like just an average Scots person, you really do. Do you think of yourself at all as German anymore?

BM: No

INT: Not at all?

BM: Not a bit.

INT: When did the changeover really happen?

BM: I think when I was up in Forres because I was accepted as part of the community there. Mr Mackenzie treated me as a son and…Hello my dear?

Mrs M: Can you stop for a cup of tea?

BM: Aye

INT: Five minutes?

Mrs M: Five minutes.

BM: They are going to ask me some questions. I thought I was stopped. No, No, No, ask your questions.

INT: Just a couple of questions.

Mrs M: Right

INT: You can come in if you want to sit down, no?

MRS M: Right, I’ll just get the tea ready.

MRS M: I’ll get the tea ready. I’ll be downstairs.

INT: That’s great. Thank you.

BM: No it was…I mean as far as I was concerned Mr Mackenzie treated me as a son, my sister as a daughter. And I, I don’t know, I was involved in the community there, you know. I went to school, I played with the kids, they came up and played with us, we would go down to the grand park and play. We played football, we played cricket and rounders and all the rest of it. And once I, pardon me, once I got a wee bit older I joined the Air Training Core so I met the local lads, we were all together there. And to me, I was just…I was one of the community.

INT: Yes, yes.

BM: You know. And that’s…

INT: Yes, you obviously still really wanted to keep the connection with your mother and father going.

BM: Oh yes.

INT: So it’s not as if you were forgetting.

BM: No

INT: All about your origins.

BM: No.

INT: But you still had moved over to being British.

BM: Yes.

INT: Definitely British.

BM: I took on the British citizenship and, as I say, my way of thanking Mr Mackenzie for taking us in was to take his name because he had no sons of his own.

INT: Yeah.

INT: Yes, yes.

BM: So I took his name and looking back on it now there is a possibility I could have upset my father, upset him a bit, by giving up his name.

INT: He would just be glad that you were alive, I should imagine.

BM: I think they understood because they… I mean they came through to visit us here, you know, and I just…I don’t know… I left Forres to come down to Glasgow, to work in the shipyards down there so I was one of the crowd, you know.

INT: Yes.

BM: One of the crowd. And in the RAF, you know, you’re all bunched together, you all worked together as a team. It’s…I’m one of the community.

INT: Supposing your parents had been based in West Germany? Do you think you’d have gone back if that had been the case?

BM: That is something I don’t know; I’ve never given it a thought. It was just the fact that there were the Russians and I’m afraid my idea of the Russian strictness and control was just not my idea of life. I don’t think I could have put up with that, you know.

INT: We’ve asked other people what they would say were the high points of life here in Scotland for you and any low points, what would you say that would be?

BM: Well the high point I think is meeting the Mrs and getting married!

INT: That is a high point.

INT: That is indeed a high point.

BM: Low points….I can’t think of any low points. We’ve been fortunate. We’ve had a good life. I’ve been…I’ve had a decent job all my working days, Betty had a decent job. We’ve had a comfortable life, brought up two boys who are doing well for themselves and…

INT: Six grandchildren.

BM: Six grandchildren yes.

INT: Do the grandchildren…are they fascinated by this extra dimension in your life? Having a German connection?

BM: Some are and some couldn’t care less. Robert, the youngest boy, and his wife and three of the kids were through on Christmas and I got Ruth to put on (she’s a wizard with the computer) and I said “Ruth,” I said…Well Robert, actually, he’s an IT specialist. “Robert” I said “Can you put the powerpoint on my computer?” he said “No” and said “Ruth or Ben will do it for you.”

Ruth put it on for me and it’s just as well I asked her because she struggled and I wouldn’t have had a clue, you know. But she put it on and it worked and that was fine and I played her the PowerPoint pictures, you know. She was the same as you – “Oh, what’s that? And the Shul too?” Fascinated her, you know. She’s quite interested, you know, and the one down in Campbeltown, the eldest grandson down in Campbeltown, he’s quite interested. But the rest of them…it’s just run of the mill, you know.

INT: Were you glad to get to meet the Kinder? I mean you were obviously very quick to reply to Dorrith. Did you enjoy meeting others who had come over?

BM: Oh aye, I was in there the first chance I got, you know, because as I say I was…I was working in Stornoway at the time and I used to fly down at the weekend and fly back up on the Monday. And when she sent me the picture…where did I put that?

INT: Pictures.

BM: Oh it’s here, it’s here; lying at my feet and I can’t see it. Do you want to switch this off and save your tape here?

INT: No it’s alright because…it’s alright now I think.

BM: The picture at the bottom of the page, that’s the one that was taken at Waverley Station.

INT: Oh, so is that you there?

BM: I need my glasses.

INT: Is that you there?

BM: No that’s me there.

INT: There.

BM: I’m holding Edith’s hand.

INT: Ah right.

BM: So that’s Edith Forrester and that’s my sister there.

INT: Right, right. So that’s…Is it Isolda?

BM: Isolda.

INT: Isolda. So that, that is him.[Bob] You had a bit more hair then. Over than that, pretty identical.

BM: Don’t rub it in please!

INT: And that’s the Forrester girl.

BM: That’s Edith Forrester.

INT: That’s so amazing.

INT: And all of these people then are arriving at Waverly Station?

BM: To go to Selkirk.

INT: And what was in Selkirk?

BM: It was a…The Priory in Selkirk was a holding station.

INT: For Kinder or for just any…

BM: No just for Kinder.

INT: Just for Kinder.

INT: See most of the people we’ve come across, they arrived in Liverpool Street in London and came to Scotland various ways after that so this is not, not the common experience.

INT: Did you not go to Liverpool Street as well?

BM: I haven’t a clue.

INT: You don’t know that.

BM: They only thing is I know, I know I arrived at Harwich, right.

INT: Right.

BM: Because…

INT: I think from Harwich you may well have been taken to Liverpool Street.

INT: So there must have been a Scottish group who had already selected some children to be there.

BM: There is the Kinderausweis, that’s what it looks like. The wee bit ‘Staatenlos’ at the bottom. There is a bigger view of the picture at Waverley Station.

INT: Oh that’s a very good picture.

INT: Did you ever find out if…

BM: Are you coming through dear? Hold on a minute, We need to shift the…. (Mrs M arrives with the tea)

Walter Gumprich – Reflection On Life

Walter talks about his family and his philosophy of life

INT:So all in all what message would you give to anybody listening to your story? We are going to have a lot of school children listening.

W.G:I think when you look back two thirds is attitude. I don’t want to say successful life, because I do not want to say I have a successful life, but I mean I have a good life and I enjoy life and two thirds of it is attitude.

Unfortunately, a big chunk of that comes from your parents so if you are born in the right circumstances you get more that just a head start.

INT:And your mum must have been a very strong person?

W.G:My dad was pretty strong too. You know I mean my mother was certainly interesting.

They were an interesting pair.

INT:Your sister went to Israel?

W.G:My sister married in 1953 and moved to Israel.

Bridget moved to Israel and got married there and she has lived there ever since. She has four boys and eleven grandchildren. They are all in Israel.

INT: And you married?

W.G: I married in 1964. Tomorrow it will be 50 years – 7^th June.

INT: What is your wife’s name?

W.G: Oh my wife, my wife.

My wife is Lois Kay. We met in Winnipeg. She was just finishing up university and finishing off three years of being Manitoba fencing champion, foil you know, and so I live a dangerous life so you know … every minute. No damage at all.

INT: How many children do you have?

W.G: We have four children. They are all living in Vancouver, in the same area. I can cycle there. The furthest is a 35 minutes cycle run. One daughter lives just across the back lane there and we have five grandchildren. We see them pretty regularly. We bump into them at least once a week.

We live far enough away that we do not see them leave their houses. Every second Friday, we are all together for Friday night supper.

We moved from Saskatoon to Vancouver almost eight years ago.

We decided, as three of them were here, and the one who was in Saskatoon had been working here. They are all very good friends and do all kinds of things together and they have done all their life. The middle two are competitive sailors. For them coming to Saskatoon twice a year – we had the room but it was an awful expense and it meant we did not grow up with the grandchildren.

The climate was not much of a consideration as we got used to the climate.

Suzanne Ullman – Reflection On Life

INT: We usually finish Suzanne by asking about reflections, and we’d like to finish with a positive as well. So when you look back, because you have obviously had a wonderful, I think, academic career, what would you say is the highlight?

SU: Of my academic career?

INT: And your life in general.

SU: Well I think my early life taught me values, it taught me how to appreciate things. I take nothing for granted, I don’t waste resources, I recycle everything and, you know, I appreciate everything that comes my way. It has made me positive, I think, and it’s made me very grateful to the good lord in whom I believe that, you know, I owe my miraculous survival and that of my family.

I mean it really is miraculous that we all separately under such circumstances… So I very much believe in providence, in the goodness of God and I try to do my best to, you know, to spread good things around and to be positive.

INT: I think you do, because you do also a lot of voluntary work as well, so despite the fact of retiring you seem to be busier now.

SU : Oh yes, I, you know, I just wish I had more energy because, you know, I get tired sometimes and I can’t work until two in the morning as I used to do before. But, you know, you have to know your limitations as well and, you know, just be grateful for what you have because we have so much and we know now how badly off people are in other parts of the world. And I’m very happy with my own life, my only sorrow is that everybody isn’t in the same happy position. There are still prejudices and still all these negative things and wars, I just pray for peace every day.

INT: Thank you very much Suzanne

INT: Thank you

INT: It was a real privilege. Thank you very much.

Reflection on Life

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